Flags- laws/by-laws or just good practice?

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kingiFiddler
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Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Just trying to get my head around this from a legal standpoint as well as general good practice.

Is there a specific law or any by-law in your neck of the woods that mandates the use of a flag? I assumed there was one but can't find it.

I'm considering just wearing a blaze orange floppy hat, etc instead. I noticed that's what a few people do. Alternatively, some sort of clip-on semi-rigid flag on the rod tips rather than shagging about with flag poles, which, frankly, annoy me.

But what say the rest of yous fellas and fellesses?

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AndrewRawlingson
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Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:54 pm

The best I found was: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12609&p=147020&hil ... on#p147020

More cleverer people than me have adapted it to fit on Scotty and Railblaza mounts. Yes, it is annoying and no, it didn't stop me being run over by a boat, but it folds up nicely and doesn't need a permanent mount as it can just sit in a rod holder.
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kingiFiddler
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Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:22 pm

Thanks for that. Looks like a nifty combo.

Mac50L
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Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:11 pm

This might or might not help. Note using the brass deck fitting as the plastic equivalent is not strong enough (one at the bottom of Queen Charlotte Sound) and fit a float (same reason).
http://www.kask.org.nz/fitting-a-flag/

kingiFiddler
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:11 am

Thanks for that too.

Can anyone point to a passage of law or any specific by-law that expressly mandates a flag please? There a guidelines and suggestions but nothing I've read thus far claims it is the law.

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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:46 am

Mac50L wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:11 pm
This might or might not help. Note using the brass deck fitting as the plastic equivalent is not strong enough (one at the bottom of Queen Charlotte Sound) and fit a float (same reason).
http://www.kask.org.nz/fitting-a-flag/
Those hose fittings are a good idea!

Just by way of interest:

I don't know how many here, use a seat, that's like a little beach chair, fabric covering a little aluminium tube frame, with little 2 inch legs, I suspect not many do.

I do, and I cut the legs down to about 3/4 inch to lower my centre of gravity, but to the point, the back has two layers of fabric, allowing stuff to be slid between 'em.

I keep my gaff here and also my flag pole, which is a 6 foot bit of dried bamboo about 1.5cm in diameter topped with a flag from trademe, that is about 1 foot long and 10 inches on it's vertical face, a little larger than the ones that can be got for kids bikes etc.

This pole floats, is light, and whilst prolly the source of a little windage, it didn't come out of the seat when I flipped that time, so a good solution for me.

Being the cheap chap that I am, I also got one of these

Image

Its small and for bicycles, couple a bucks online and it straps on to the pole at the top.

Coincidentally my neighbour drives a Fullers Ferry and he said he sees me well enough in the dark.
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Mental
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am

kingiFiddler wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:11 am
Thanks for that too.

Can anyone point to a passage of law or any specific by-law that expressly mandates a flag please? There a guidelines and suggestions but nothing I've read thus far claims it is the law.
Hmm seems things may have changed in 2014 with the release of "Navigation Safety Bylaw 2014
and Controls" https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/pla ... ls2014.pdf which I assume replaces the last one from 2008 which had more stipulations about kayak visibility...
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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:38 am

Mental wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am
kingiFiddler wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:11 am
Thanks for that too.

Can anyone point to a passage of law or any specific by-law that expressly mandates a flag please? There a guidelines and suggestions but nothing I've read thus far claims it is the law.
Hmm seems things may have changed in 2014 with the release of "Navigation Safety Bylaw 2014
and Controls" https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/pla ... ls2014.pdf which I assume replaces the last one from 2008 which had more stipulations about kayak visibility...
Yes, the key passage is -

Visibility of paddle craft
(1) A person must not operate a paddle craft of less than seven metres beyond sheltered waters unless the person in charge of the vessel has taken steps to ensure its visibility to other vessels.
___

Oooer! ...Steps...
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UrbanAngler
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:03 pm

Marc N wrote:
Mental wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:32 am
kingiFiddler wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:11 am
Thanks for that too.

Can anyone point to a passage of law or any specific by-law that expressly mandates a flag please? There a guidelines and suggestions but nothing I've read thus far claims it is the law.
Hmm seems things may have changed in 2014 with the release of "Navigation Safety Bylaw 2014
and Controls" https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/pla ... ls2014.pdf which I assume replaces the last one from 2008 which had more stipulations about kayak visibility...
Yes, the key passage is -

Visibility of paddle craft
(1) A person must not operate a paddle craft of less than seven metres beyond sheltered waters unless the person in charge of the vessel has taken steps to ensure its visibility to other vessels.
___

Oooer! ...Steps...
How do you define “sheltered waters”?

I dont think its legally required of we just fish inshore.


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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:19 pm

I just read the next clause and unless it's just me being old and feeble, I reckon that 34(3) means, Kayaks must have the current owner’s name and contact details somewhere on the vessel.

Could some of you excellent folk, please read the below passage and tell me if I've got that right?


34 Vessels to be identified
(1) A person must not use a vessel on navigable waters unless it displays a name, consisting of letters the Roman alphabet or numbers that are not the vessel’s brand, make or model, and that is distinct to that vessel.
(2) Subject to clause (3), this clause does not apply to:
(a) non-mechanically powered vessels of less than six metres in length; and (b) power driven vessels of less than four metres in length.
(3) Non-mechanically powered vessels and power driven vessels referred to in subclause (2) must be marked with the current owner’s name and contact details somewhere on the vessel.
(4) The name, identification mark or number referred to in subclauses (1) must be displayed above the waterline on each side of the vessel by the person in charge of the vessel. The minimum height of the name, identifying mark or identification number is 90 millimetres and it must be legible by day from a distance of at least 50 metres.

And does my anchor float, constitute "somewhere on the vessel" ?
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Mental
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:36 pm

I would say "non-mechanically powered vessels of less than six metres in length" means you are excluded with your sub 6m paddle powered kayak...

but is peddle powered classed as mechanical, or if you use one of the small electric propeller systems..?
Marc N wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:19 pm
I just read the next clause and unless it's just me being old and feeble, I reckon that 34(3) means, Kayaks must have the current owner’s name and contact details somewhere on the vessel.

Could some of you excellent folk, please read the below passage and tell me if I've got that right?


34 Vessels to be identified
(1) A person must not use a vessel on navigable waters unless it displays a name, consisting of letters the Roman alphabet or numbers that are not the vessel’s brand, make or model, and that is distinct to that vessel.
(2) Subject to clause (3), this clause does not apply to:
(a) non-mechanically powered vessels of less than six metres in length; and (b) power driven vessels of less than four metres in length.
(3) Non-mechanically powered vessels and power driven vessels referred to in subclause (2) must be marked with the current owner’s name and contact details somewhere on the vessel.
(4) The name, identification mark or number referred to in subclauses (1) must be displayed above the waterline on each side of the vessel by the person in charge of the vessel. The minimum height of the name, identifying mark or identification number is 90 millimetres and it must be legible by day from a distance of at least 50 metres.

And does my anchor float, constitute "somewhere on the vessel" ?
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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:52 pm

Mental wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:36 pm
I would say "non-mechanically powered vessels of less than six metres in length" means you are excluded with your sub 6m paddle powered kayak...

but is peddle powered classed as mechanical, or if you use one of the small electric propeller systems..?

excluded for (1) but not for (3) which refers to the sub 6 m vessels, in (2) which defines said vessels and exempts them from (1)

Bicycles are mechanical as are electric propellors

but I could be being too literal...
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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:56 pm

This fish needs a bicycle :D

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DocProfit
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:09 pm

When I started kayak fishing I thought there was no way I would ever use one of those silly orange bicycle flags on my yak.

Then I started fishing early mornings at Narrow Neck.

There are so many boats and ships tearing through there you'd be crazy not to use every little thing you can to make yourself as visible as possible.



P.S. I still couldn't bring myself to mount a bicycle flag so got a NZ Ensign instead 8)
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Marc N
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:50 pm

DocProfit wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:09 pm
When I started kayak fishing I thought there was no way I would ever use one of those silly orange bicycle flags on my yak.

Then I started fishing early mornings at Narrow Neck.

There are so many boats and ships tearing through there you'd be crazy not to use every little thing you can to make yourself as visible as possible.



P.S. I still couldn't bring myself to mount a bicycle flag so got a NZ Ensign instead 8)
That's very cool ! :y: :y: :y:
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kingiFiddler
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Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:05 pm

A while back I contemplated waterproof blutooth speakers for sounds while feeding the fishies. The main reason I didn't buy any, apart from deciding there's precious little quiet time left in my life to ruin it with music, was because I want to hear approaching watercraft.

I'm confident that if I can't get out of their way fast enough (I seldom anchor these days for that reason), a flag wouldn't have made a lick'n difference to the outcome. Moreso if I am already wearing a bright orange or red hat.

But I just wanted to be sure the law wasn't making a criminal out of me.

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Mitch65
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Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:54 pm

Flag and light for me, having had boats its hard to see yaks (mainly Fergs) in the swells.
As for the blind skippers that once past North head then go and make a coffee or G and T, a torpedo is required.
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MikeAqua
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Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:05 am

I don't bother with a flag, I find them a PITA. On some trips I've caught my flag more often than I've caught fish :$

I do wear a flouro-orange hat during daylight hours and I'm about the same height above water as the flag pole I used to have. If in doubt I wave my paddle around. I only ever buy paddles with brightly coloured blades.

I use an all round white light on a pole if I'm out after dark. I also have a dive torch secured to the outside of my PFD, readily accessible for signalling.
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Mac50L
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Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:10 am

As far as rules go for Canterbury (ECAN) -

https://www.ecan.govt.nz/document/download?uri=2473039

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Navigation Safety Bylaw 2016 and Controls

20 Vessels to be identified
(1)
No person shall navigate a vessel unless it displays an identifying name or number
displayed above the waterline on each side of the vessel by the owner of the vessel:
(a) consisting of letters of the Roman alphabet or numbers that are not the vessel’s
(b) brand, make or model; and
(c) that is distinct to that vessel; and
(d) unless complying with the requirements of an organisation listed in subclause
(2)(a), be a minimum height of 90 millimetres and be distinguishable to the naked
eye by day from a distance of at least 50 metres.

(3) Subject to subclause (4), subclauses (1) and (2) do not apply to:
(a) non-powered vessels of six metres or less in length;
(b) paddle craft;
(c) vessels powered solely by oars;
(d) a vessel which is temporarily being operated on Canterbury waters and which
displays markings which meet an identification requirement within the Navigation
Safety Bylaws of the region in which the vessel normally operates.
(4) Vessels referred to in subclause (3) must be marked with the current owner’s name and
contact details somewhere on the vessel

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've left out (2). My 6.25 metre double is too big except it is paddle powered. Note paddles (b) and oars (c) instead of simply saying "solely human powered" or some such.

You still need your name and contact written somewhere on the vessel. Felt-tip pen and in the cockpit would be suitable and to help find if an abandoned kayak has lost its owner (at sea) or if the owner has lost it.

As for flags and visibility, a few years back a power boat by Auckland Yacht Club Vice Commodore or some such, ran down a kayak. He was waving his paddle, had highly visible clothing and colours but still got hit.

Yes, idiots all the way down.....

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Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:36 am

There is mention of the Auckland Regional Council Navigation Safety Bylaw 2008 on the KASK website. This is what is there plus comments, which might be worth considering.

ARC Bylaw ~ Visibility of kayaks and paddle craft
Effective from 1 July 2008

Clause 2.17 Auckland Regional Council Navigation Safety Bylaw 2008

1. Every kayak and paddle craft that is navigating in waters beyond 200 metres from shore shall ensure they are highly visible to other vessels. This shall include:

(a) wearing a high visibility vest or high visibility PFD; and

(b) use of reflecting tape on oars or paddles and also on clothing; and

(c) at night, showing a continuous white light visible in all directions from a distance of two nautical miles.

Comments –

(a) Black was found, over 60 years ago, to be the most visible colour in certain lighting conditions!
The bylaw does not state what is considered a high visibility colour.

(b) There are no specifications for size or positioning of the reflective tape!

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