Rob's article on Bureaucracy -

To discuss safety issues and their direct affects on kayaks and kayak fishing. Do it but do it safely!
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paddlesnap
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:59 am

Seem's the safety crap is going OTT

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11323799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Probably why I see Pete Townend at Canoe and Kayak Manukau branch has a fleet of the cars for safety auditing parked outside the shop ...

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Snap 4T
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:24 am

Yeah, saw that article this morning,
reminded me of my experience with OSH.
got me thinking is it really for safety or just another money gathering tool or bureaucracy gone mad.

novex
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:36 am

working in a trade you see a lot of similar arguments, you also find that practices put in place aren't necessarily great for safety. they are great for shifting responsibility.
best example is incident reporting. most companies now say if you have an incident at work you MUST REPORT IT, while at the same they are introducing rewards schemes for a year with "no incidents". Yea thats going to lead to honest reporting of incidents and improved safety, certainly not designed to give a small "reward" that is notably less than the hike in ACC levies if incidents were reported correctly.


i really feel for rob and others in similar positions and it seems incredibly heavy handed to require an expensive audit and ongoing audits to produce a history of care.
surely a responsible tour guide should have the oportunity to provide their exisiting audits and history of care, safety records etc to the DOL and get preliminary approval, then maintain a annual reporting schedule.


i wonder if these are some of the jobs national has "created", and if the lost jobs and damage to the industry will be accounted for.
Daniel
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Ruakaka-bloke
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:40 am

Run a hire business, hire the kayaks out & offer to go out with them for free. As a mate not a guide?

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YakSolo_333
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:40 am

RB how can he charge for his guided experience then? Most people who go out with Rob are interested in his guided fishing tours not his rentals and if he can't advertise its business lost. No incident in 7 years that should be enough evidence to show he operates with safety in mind.

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awondering
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:14 am

YakSolo_333 wrote:RB how can he charge for his guided experience then? Most people who go out with Rob are interested in his guided fishing tours not his rentals and if he can't advertise its business lost. No incident in 7 years that should be enough evidence to show he operates with safety in mind.

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you sell a pack of soft baits for $250 and the fella that sold them goes along for paddle just to make sure they work ;)
Cant get better customer service than that :!:

Yep the safety audits etc are great, all be it ball busting bollocks etc, I just cannot get my head around the cost, sounds off the scale, I would like to know how they come to that figure :^)

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Peace
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:04 am

i have had to do the DOL inspection thing at my company its not just the $$ but the amount of time it takes to jump thru all their hoops just in case some nutter tries and cut their hand off from some seemingly impossible position + the extra paperwork

paddlesnap
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:16 am

Yup same in the rescue services - some folk cark it and then they go all over the top-with paperwork :^) But don't actually spend the money on decent gear for front line staff to use :@
It all goes to the faceless bureaucrats and their minions, like vultures , picking all thats left out of the carcase for themselves.

Same happened in the Coast to Coast and other adventure sports - started needing Kayak Course quals and such to participate , but all it did was make the safety course trainers rich.
Wish I'd thought of it :?: $$$

HookiT
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:38 pm

Bureaucracy arm never rests, always wanting more money/taxes.
At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own health and safety. No legislation, audits or otherwise can literally stop an accident, but it does make/ bring every one scally wags, honest operators into line, to assure their customers that equipment and safety gear and leadership is potentially up to scratch, and that their health and safety shall not be compromised.
I use 'potentially', for if audits are only every three years, a dishonest operator can let their standards of safety lapse. Audits should be spontaneous, that way operators would be more mindful of having a top notch operation, 100% of the time.

As to the cost that has been quoted, no, absolutely over the top.
The audit should be free of charge.
If compliance is needed to bring operation up to scratch (safety wise) then the operator must meet all associated costs, return visits from auditor ect.
If the system wants to be responsible for everyone's health and safety let it wear the majority of cost.

My two shillings worth.. We live in a world that gets worse by the day.

Jamie D
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:56 pm

Vote Working class people to government , and use Current politicians to anchor boats and cray pots. Hold stupid policy makers under the water until they turn blue , then laugh excessively , Whilst screaming SAFE ENOUGH FOR YOU

HookiT
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:59 pm

Jamie D wrote:Vote Working class people to government , and use Current politicians to anchor boats and cray pots. Hold stupid policy makers under the water until they turn blue , then laugh excessively , Whilst screaming SAFE ENOUGH FOR YOU

Go Jamie ha ha lololo you are onto it matey.

paddlesnap
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Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:21 pm

Well said Jamie :lol:

scootergirl
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Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:55 am

Wow!! Whilst fundamentally the theory that all our adventure tourism is now going to be rigorously audited (and this will be because of the infrequent incidents/accidents that do occur in OTHER adventure tourism arenas) the whole concept of Adventure Tourism is very much the issue here. There is risk in everything we undertake, be it commuting to work, or taking the kids to kindy. And whilst those who sign on for the 'thrills' of whatever activity they have signed on for would usually sign a disclaimer indemnifying the operator, the clients are aware that they are undertaking an 'adventure', in and of itself, a risky business. Sure, there should be some minimum compliance guidelines, which could be introduced as a gradual process, over a fair period of time, in the event that there is no historical/anecdotal provable evidence of care/safety. Or are we to now sanitise everything we undertake and perpetuate living in a nanny state where we create a further level of bureaucracy to justify new jobs for people who have little or no knowledge of our sport?? Will we see heath and safety inspectors turning up in the many garages of our members checking the safety classifications of our PFD's, inspecting hulls and personal safety equipment, then retrospectively charging us for their time?
I have had the pleasure of a guided kayak mission with Rob, as very many of you have, and have never felt so safe and well looked after. The safety briefing took half an hour before we even hit the water. And that was prior to at least two detailed conversations ascertaining my level of confidence/competence and history.
Conversely, stayed at a (shall remain un-named) coastal NZ motorcamp who had kayaks for hire, well scuffed and scratched up, with a few rod holders and an old paddle in them, and for a fee, could scamper off to the wild blue yonder, in any conditions, with little or no experience for a days paddling/fishing, no worries mate! The safety briefing consisted of
"Yuh paddled one of these before?",
"Yup, on holiday in Rarotonga",
"all good then,if yuh see the rain come in, probably wanna paddle like buggery back to the beach, gets a bit blowy in these parts",
"What do you think of the weather today then?",
"Oh, probably a bit shit, might wanna see what it's like when you're out there".
Maybe what is needed is a smart bureaucrat (in the same sentence!!!) who can differentiate the difference between this cowboy operator, and a smart, professional business like Rob and Janets' and put the focus into where it's needed. Just my two cents worth, good luck Rob and Janet!
Jude

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MikeAqua
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Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:28 pm

From November 1 adventure tourism operators offering activities that "deliberately expose participants to a risk of serious harm" must undergo a safety audit by a recognised auditor and be registered with WorkSafe NZ.

That captures a lot.

In practice, Work Safe won't have enough auditors to go around and audit everyone.

Operators who keep a low profile will probably escape attention ...
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MadMike
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Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:40 pm

All this will accomplish is hurt the guys that do things correctly, it wont eliminate the cowboys and fly by nighters, they will still continue to do there under the table offerings and people like Rob will become a statistic to how well the system worked because it knocked all these non compliant guys out of operation (non compliance = couldn't afford it). how many guided Kayak fishing charters have turned tragic in NZ? most fatalities have been OBC based white water related haven't they? and they are monitored and have all this saftey crap built in already?

I wouldn't mind knowing who is more qualified than some of the long term operators out there like Rob Fort to make decisions on if they are safe enough or not. How many of these guys doing the audits have actually ever sat in a kayak let alone a fishing Kayak. I don't know how many of you have noticed but most of Robs photos are in flat calm conditions. I hope you beat it Rob and others. it would be sad to see you and your kind squashed.
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Little Rob Nelson
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Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:46 pm

Case in point, OPC was actually audited on the day of this avoidble accident.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/school-canyon ... d=10635466" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can train a monkey to pass an exam, not all monkeys have common sense.

Being in the adventure industry myself, I have seen peoples businesses being audited by people who have no relevent experience or knowledge in the said business, this to me just makes me feel the whole system is a farse. :@

Hope you can somehow get this sorted Rob!! :y:

dwmonty
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Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:16 pm

Biting my tongue to stop from commenting fully on this but lets just say I got audited by Maritime NZ recently and will soon be receiveing a bill of over $200 per hour for the privilege. We will pay the bill because we have to and at the end of the day hopefully their comments will help improve our systems and to keep our staff safe, but the cost will always be passed on to our clients and they will pass that on to everyone else.
At the end of the day everyone needs to remember that health and safety is only there to make sure we can all go home safely at the end of the day to our families. Having been in the position previously of having a staff member who did not return home after work (not accident related) I firmly believe no price can possibly be put on that.
Cheers
Dale

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