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Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:14 am
by beachlandsfish
Sure a lot of debate on this pricing, good to have an open discussion I suppose. US stuff is usually cheaper with economies of scale.

The reload is still my 'dream' to own kayak. I really like the idea of the detachable centre pod, and also kid pod. I've got an old prowler 13 for 2 years now, its ok good for a first fishing yak. I feel the reload is top of the line and the price reflects the position in the market - its pricey ya but its still top of class out there in viking range.

So ya I'm still going for it towards end of next year when I've saved up enough dough to get a fully kitted out reload (chill pod + rudder)
The difference in pricing is ok for me, somehow I feel its important to support nz designed and made, its a good place to be. And 20-30% more is ok, a kayak lasts for quite a while...

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:56 pm
by davidlaws69839
I got the only fully rigged Viking reload in the whole U.S. all six holders n everything! And paid regular price cause thats nust how it came! Actually I sold my ultra icebox icebox so i really only paid like $878 :rock: Gotta love Austin Canoe and Kayak!

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:02 pm
by Rob
Hi davidlaws69839,

Good score! (I hate you :D ) ((just joking))

Let us know how it goes for you.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:19 pm
by MadMike
Hokaai wrote:Late on this topic... sorry.

We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Do not blame Viking, they are only protecting their dealers.
Im sorry mate, I have kept out of this but you are <img src="./images/smilies/emoticon-0183-swear.gif" alt=":swear:" title="Swear"> dreaming. Margins in NZ are lead by the expense of business. if you think small player retailers make to much money I challenge you to work out a way of having lower margins and still having a shop with in a year. big turn overs allow lower margins, small turn overs do not. margins pay the bills first and foremost then pay the owners / share holders of companies. in a lot of cases there not even doing that, do your homework before making such a pointed uneducated remark. the mark ups are generally lower in the fishing market than almost anything you buy from anywhere else including the food you eat. the main exception to this would be electronics which are even worse.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:55 pm
by Nakian
Yeah, I give up and join in too.

This is great fun to read but really, ALL the yaks, of a similar spec, poly or glass; cost.
Shouldn't we really be pinging OC for closing their factory (for instance)? Withdrawing from our market and why?
Costs?
Get over it. Here you are and we pay what we do because we are few. It sucks but then it is an expensive hobby (this particular subject), relatively and one could go back to the days of build yer own but who's inclined when you can get it off the shelf.
Or, buy something cheaper.

I got one 'cos it ticked the boxes. Other contenders cost the same and no doubt for the same reasons. Nothing secret about staying in business. Pay the bills and make a profit.
Like others say, heres hoping it (Viking) doesn't go the way of F & P or Norsewear etc as a possibility.

ps There's a reason the yanks go on about "Buy made in the USA" but now it's about global markets and the genie is free. Wasn't it so much nicer before the net let us look over the fence.... :P

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:59 pm
by WaikatoYakka
I want a fee one :lol:

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:07 pm
by Winch
WaikatoYakka wrote:I want a fee one :lol:

Wont you just win one tin bum :lol:

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:25 pm
by ship
To much of the unknown and guess work on this topic, best to concentrate on our own market

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:32 pm
by Hawk
Snakebite1969 wrote:That is called dumping and the US has strict laws against it.[/i]
Anti-Dumping legislation is to stop importers undercutting the local market... which Viking aren't doing.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:40 pm
by Hawk
Hokaai wrote:We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Not long ago a bought a rod... and when smooching the sales girl for discount she checked the prices... and I peered over her shoulder... wholesale cost of rod, $79,99, sales price $199,99.
Going down the list it was all the same 120% mark-up... Your $2599 Reload at your local dealer was only $1199 wholesale!
You couldn't have chosen a worse example. A rod that is mass produced (guessing it will be a big name like Diawa, Shimano etc), vs a high end (well, for plastic) Kayak, sold soley in NZ until recently.
Now I'm not saying that they don't have a large mark-up, and your wholesale price is probably in the ball-park, but as MM says very well, in the NZ market there are a huge amount of overheads to deal with to keep the company going.... and innovating.

As I said earlier, If Viking start truly mass-producing the Reload for a global market, I would hope that the price will drop fairly significantly. If they were to run right now at tighter margins (like export models) for the NZ market, I don't think Viking would survive for long with their current level of service, or even at all.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:53 pm
by Snakebite1969
Hawk wrote:
Snakebite1969 wrote:That is called dumping and the US has strict laws against it.[/i]
Anti-Dumping legislation is to stop importers undercutting the local market... which Viking aren't doing.
Why didn't you quote the rest of my post which had the definition of dumping direct from the US Government website, here it is again

http://enforcement.trade.gov/intro/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is Dumping?

Dumping occurs when a foreign producer sells a product in the United States at a price that is below that producer's sales price in the country of origin ("home market")
, or at a price that is lower than the cost of production. The difference between the price (or cost) in the foreign market and the price in the U.S. market is called the dumping margin. Unless the conduct falls within the legal definition of dumping as specified in U.S. law, a foreign producer selling imports at prices below those of American products is not necessarily dumping.


Undercutting the local market is not defined as dumping, but if Viking is selling items lower then the country of origin, then by definition from the US Government website they are dumping, CLEAR AND SIMPLE.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:56 pm
by Blazer60
There was a Clinical Psychologist - Maslow - who developed the "Hierarchy of Needs" which examines the theory of human motivation: what drives us. It is represented in a triangle with the most fundamental or even primeval needs defining the bottom of the triangle. I needed a new kayak. I bought a PF400, I frickin love it.
My CFO approved the purchase. I don't give a toss what a Viking product costs in the US or on the dark side of the moon. Thank you Stephen for a wicked product and all the free and generous advice on this forum and elsewhere.

Now that's Maslow at work...

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:44 pm
by Pointloader
Snakebite1969 wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Snakebite1969 wrote:That is called dumping and the US has strict laws against it.[/i]
Anti-Dumping legislation is to stop importers undercutting the local market... which Viking aren't doing.

Why didn't you quote the rest of my post which had the definition of dumping direct from the US Government website, here it is again

http://enforcement.trade.gov/intro/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is Dumping?

Dumping occurs when a foreign producer sells a product in the United States at a price that is below that producer's sales price in the country of origin ("home market")
, or at a price that is lower than the cost of production. The difference between the price (or cost) in the foreign market and the price in the U.S. market is called the dumping margin. Unless the conduct falls within the legal definition of dumping as specified in U.S. law, a foreign producer selling imports at prices below those of American products is not necessarily dumping.


Undercutting the local market is not defined as dumping, but if Viking is selling items lower then the country of origin, then by definition from the US Government website they are dumping, CLEAR AND SIMPLE.
Did I quote enough?

Not clear and simple at all, this relies on the EXACT SAME product being sold into the U.S at a price lower than it is sold in it's home market.
They are different versions being sold in the U.S that are not being advertised or sold here in NZ, so your repeatedly flawed argument has no relevance to this situation.
It also relies on Vikings export volume to the U.S being greater than 3% of the total volume of "like" products manufactured in the U.S and thus significantly and purposely damaging the profitability of those U.S based manufacturers

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:49 pm
by Hokaai
Hawk wrote:
Hokaai wrote:We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Not long ago a bought a rod... and when smooching the sales girl for discount she checked the prices... and I peered over her shoulder... wholesale cost of rod, $79,99, sales price $199,99.
Going down the list it was all the same 120% mark-up... Your $2599 Reload at your local dealer was only $1199 wholesale!
You couldn't have chosen a worse example. A rod that is mass produced (guessing it will be a big name like Diawa, Shimano etc), vs a high end (well, for plastic) Kayak, sold soley in NZ until recently.
Now I'm not saying that they don't have a large mark-up, and your wholesale price is probably in the ball-park, but as MM says very well, in the NZ market there are a huge amount of overheads to deal with to keep the company going.... and innovating.

As I said earlier, If Viking start truly mass-producing the Reload for a global market, I would hope that the price will drop fairly significantly. If they were to run right now at tighter margins (like export models) for the NZ market, I don't think Viking would survive for long with their current level of service, or even at all.
You completely missed my point... I did not say Viking is taking a huge mark-up did I? I said the retailers do.
How is my example bad? My rod example is real and it is applied to many retail businesses, not just fishing and hunting. Viking is innovating and I am willing to pay Viking for their innovation... What does retailers innovate?

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 10:59 pm
by Hokaai
MadMike wrote:
Hokaai wrote:Late on this topic... sorry.

We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Do not blame Viking, they are only protecting their dealers.
Im sorry mate, I have kept out of this but you are <img src="./images/smilies/emoticon-0183-swear.gif" alt=":swear:" title="Swear"> dreaming. Margins in NZ are lead by the expense of business. if you think small player retailers make to much money I challenge you to work out a way of having lower margins and still having a shop with in a year. big turn overs allow lower margins, small turn overs do not. margins pay the bills first and foremost then pay the owners / share holders of companies. in a lot of cases there not even doing that, do your homework before making such a pointed uneducated remark. the mark ups are generally lower in the fishing market than almost anything you buy from anywhere else including the food you eat. the main exception to this would be electronics which are even worse.
I said NOTHING of small retailers 'making too much money'... The question was why a reload in USA is so much cheaper than in NZ? I pointed out that a big part of the difference is mark-ups at the retail level.
How profitable your business is depends on your business plan and how you execute it... does not change the fact that retailers charge 100-120% mark-ups in NZ where as in the US (and the rest of the free world) it is only 15-30%... which was the point I am making.
How much money retailers actually make or not make is a completely different discussion.

Please explain why my comment was uneducated? Please stay in context of what I actually said...

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:49 am
by MadMike
Hokaai wrote:
MadMike wrote:
Hokaai wrote:Late on this topic... sorry.

We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Do not blame Viking, they are only protecting their dealers.
Im sorry mate, I have kept out of this but you are <img src="./images/smilies/emoticon-0183-swear.gif" alt=":swear:" title="Swear"> dreaming. Margins in NZ are lead by the expense of business. if you think small player retailers make to much money I challenge you to work out a way of having lower margins and still having a shop with in a year. big turn overs allow lower margins, small turn overs do not. margins pay the bills first and foremost then pay the owners / share holders of companies. in a lot of cases there not even doing that, do your homework before making such a pointed uneducated remark. the mark ups are generally lower in the fishing market than almost anything you buy from anywhere else including the food you eat. the main exception to this would be electronics which are even worse.
I said NOTHING of small retailers 'making too much money'... The question was why a reload in USA is so much cheaper than in NZ? I pointed out that a big part of the difference is mark-ups at the retail level.
How profitable your business is depends on your business plan and how you execute it... does not change the fact that retailers charge 100-120% mark-ups in NZ where as in the US (and the rest of the free world) it is only 15-30%... which was the point I am making.
How much money retailers actually make or not make is a completely different discussion.

Please explain why my comment was uneducated? Please stay in context of what I actually said...
Quite simply, go away... !

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:29 am
by itsallablur
MadMike wrote:Quite simply, go away... !
Agreed MM - Viking kayaks are awesome - the end!!

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:21 pm
by Hawk
Hokaai wrote:You completely missed my point... I did not say Viking is taking a huge mark-up did I? I said the retailers do.
How is my example bad? My rod example is real and it is applied to many retail businesses, not just fishing and hunting. Viking is innovating and I am willing to pay Viking for their innovation... What does retailers innovate?
My genuine apologies if I missed your point... you are obviously fully supportive of Viking, so we are both on the same page. Guess the discussion diverted onto NZ tackle retailers' margins (rather than just Viking's), in which I'm probably not experienced enough to comment much.

Whether MM makes a large margin or not, I'm not going to spend the time worrying about. He offers a great service, and some pretty hot deals which at times are competitive even relative to what you can import them yourself for... but with great backup and servicing.

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:36 am
by Jamie D
Jeez it's hard to just enjoy a passion in New Zealand I feel for you guys . If the wages weren't so crap the difference in price from USA to NZ might not be a big deal . When I came to Aussie I was on 400 bucks a week more for doing the same job . Wtf have we done to the economy as a whole is a better question . Surely a man should be able to work hard and get paid enough that he can enjoy his passions without saving for a year

Re: Fishings great but the economics suck.

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:05 am
by Rob
For me it was a lack of desire. (If all the bills are paid and you have no desires beyond knickknacks, why save?... (thats personal savings, not associated with keeping the family finances healthy ))

More like a self inflicted vow of poverty. :rofl:
Until the Reload came out I couldn't see the point of buying a new kayak... the current 2 person barge isn't great, but it floats and I can fish off it.
So I chose to spend on knickknacks for the current kayak, (fish finder, rods, reels, rod holders, starports etc etc ) plus a new PC at home.

I started saving for the new kayak from a $0.00 base line. :)
I was expecting it to take until Spring to gather up enough cash. (I don't borrow)
But I am way ahead of my expectations regarding saving (amazing what can be done when you want something to happen :rock: ).

Rob.