Fishings great but the economics suck.

General Kayak Fishing Discussions
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Pointloader
Posts: 2289
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:19 pm
Kayak Make: Viking Kayaks
Kayak Model: Profish Reload
VHF Call Sign: ZMW9774
Location: Auckland
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Sat May 24, 2014 7:44 pm

Remember the biggest difference is due to volume purchased, and you can bet that is closely followed by the local retailers margins. Not just for Vikings but for all brands, the RRP is set and then the manufacturer has no option but to stick to that to save from upsetting a retailer by undercutting them. The retailer however has the room to move, AND the power to negotiate better buy prices with bulk purchases.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the local retailers regularly discount by anywhere up to 15-20% on almost all makes and models, why you may ask? Because they have the capability to do so. This would not only put the pricing on par, but likely better than they get in the U.S.

It seems some are really quick to bag a manufacturer, long before looking at the others involved in their market who make the biggest difference to the price the end user pays, and somehow also expect the manufacturer to charge more for bulk purchasers, going against the norm for any industry in the world. That makes no sense...
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Milkey
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:00 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Reload

Sat May 24, 2014 7:46 pm

kernels wrote:I must be having a stroke, can not believe what I'm reading. You take a product, ship it to the other side of the world and sell it for less than you sell it for at the door of the place where you made it and everyone is jumping up and down about how happy that makes them.

I guess all you guys don't mind paying more for kiwi grown fruit, lamb, beef and milk than someone in Japan or America ?

How does doing research and development mean that it's OK and MORAL to sell a product for less after shipping it half way around the world?

Nothing makes me happier than a kiwi company that has success selling internationally, makes me less happy if I have to pay more so that the Americans can pay less. Basically the local market is subsidizing the international market ?
Buy a container full of kayaks from Viking and I'm sure Grant or Stephen could do a deal.
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The Fishmonger
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:56 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: ProFish 400
Location: North Shore, Auckland

Sat May 24, 2014 8:05 pm

Milkey wrote:
kernels wrote:I must be having a stroke, can not believe what I'm reading. You take a product, ship it to the other side of the world and sell it for less than you sell it for at the door of the place where you made it and everyone is jumping up and down about how happy that makes them.

I guess all you guys don't mind paying more for kiwi grown fruit, lamb, beef and milk than someone in Japan or America ?

How does doing research and development mean that it's OK and MORAL to sell a product for less after shipping it half way around the world?

Nothing makes me happier than a kiwi company that has success selling internationally, makes me less happy if I have to pay more so that the Americans can pay less. Basically the local market is subsidizing the international market ?
Buy a container full of kayaks from Viking and I'm sure Grant or Stephen could do a deal.
I think an important point is being missed here. We are comparing retail vs retail prices, not wholesale vs retail. Obviously US consumers are not buying by the container load personally yet are still enjoying lower prices than on NZ soil.
ProFish 400

kernels
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:41 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: ProFish Reload

Sat May 24, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks, at least I'm not totally alone here, very very good point re wholesale vs. retail.

Saying 'if you don't like the price don't buy the kayak' does not really add much to what is a pretty legitimate debate.

The local market should be able to get an advantage out of Viking's international success, I hope that as they increase the quantities that they manufacture for export we actually get better cheaper kayaks.

I'm not anti Viking at all, I've got one hanging outside, great product, it's totally 100% just a 'feeling' thing, I get a bad feeling when a US consumer can buy a single kayak substantially cheaper than I can after it was shipped there.

As an aside, If I didn't want the seat or paddle (to get it as close to the US spec one as possible) what would that cost locally ?

Winch
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:10 pm
Kayak Make: Kaskazi
Kayak Model: Dorado 2
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Location: Earth

Sat May 24, 2014 9:10 pm

I would like the people that don't like it to say what they do for a job!

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Hawk
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:09 pm
Kayak Make: Pinnacle
Kayak Model: Elite
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Location: Napier

Sat May 24, 2014 9:38 pm

It would be interesting to see how much Viking would sell a container load of Reloads for to a NZ "value added reseller". In theory it should similar to the US model, but as the long term NZ opportunities are so limited, I don't think it would be sensible for them to even entertain the idea.

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YakFisho Snapps
Posts: 5541
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Kayak Model: Evolution 495,BFS..
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Location: Wellington

Sat May 24, 2014 9:42 pm

Been sitting on the fence, but some very good points have been brought up making the mold for the kayak ain't a cheap process plus one of the best in research and development in these kayaks in the field being Mr Tappy :rock:.. Then as mentioned you have cost's of everything involved in running the business from overheads to the building electricity costs and marketing it all adds up, love the inovations this Reload has from fishing to carrying you little loved ones onboard..Good to see Viking Kayaks Expanding into the overseas market USA hope my ProFish reload arrives to my mums place on the greek island of Crete soon threw Viking Kayaks Greece and Vayias to chase some fish on next visit keep up the good work Viking Kayaks :y:

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Hawk
Posts: 983
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Location: Napier

Sat May 24, 2014 9:47 pm

Winch wrote:I would like the people that don't like it to say what they do for a job!
Yeah mate, I'm with you on this one. Speak up people!

Shows very little understanding of manufacturing, exporting, developing a new market and effort/cost per sale.

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Hawk
Posts: 983
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Location: Napier

Sat May 24, 2014 9:57 pm

YakFisho Snapps wrote:...making the mold for the kayak ain't a cheap process plus one of the best in research and development in these kayaks in the field being Mr Tappy :rock:..
You are right on it.
The duration and amount of man hours that is takes to get a mature, resolved design, most people would not even begin to appreciate. For the Reload to hit the market with so few criticisms is a real testament to the team that developed it, and all the preceding models that have contributed to the Viking DNA. I don't own a Reload (not really my cup o' tea), but can appreciate the time and effort that goes into making a product like this happen.

Hurley Burley
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:53 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Espri Angler
Location: Taranaki

Sat May 24, 2014 10:14 pm

I think it's important to remember it is one container load of kayaks, bought at bulk volume for bulk prices. The retailer is free to sell the kayak at whatever price they choose.
When you're supplying product in bulk you can buy a greater volume of raw materials for cheaper to cover that order and hence offer a cheaper product. You can not offer this discount to all customers as you can not buy the raws at the same cost. You wouldn't purchase the raws in the same volume as no manufacturer would want that much money tied up in raws that May or may not be used.
Most manufactures run as lean as possible so as little money as possible is tied up in stock and raws sat on shelves. That's dead money and bad business and you'll quickly find yourself out of business.
I see nothing bad on what Viking are doing, it's just standard business...


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DJ-400
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:14 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Profish 400
VHF Call Sign: ZMW4232
Location: Wanganui

Sat May 24, 2014 10:30 pm

Isn't the price reflective of the market?? And the kayak in question (Reload) is in direct competition against the Elite 4.3 so therefore the RRP was set even before the Reload was released, so the prices are very similar here in NZ??
The NZ-Retail V's US-Retail price structure would be driven in totally different ways and if the US retailer was happy to take a smaller margin, then so be it, he has the opportunity to sell a lot more units over there compared to here.
re; the wholesaler V's retailer, aren't Viking a retailer, therefore as with all their retail outlets have a set price, which was set some time ago. As the wholesaler, Viking, I would think, would have an agreement with their retail outlets that they won't undercut them because if they did why would any retail outlet push their products??
If a US retailer approaches a wholesaler and wants a huge consignment they are going to ask for a much bigger discount than a local retailer that only wants 10 to 20 units per year and spread out over that financial year so that on the 20th of each month their out-goings is minimal and quite possibly local retailers here will have to order the kayak in because they can't afford to carry every colour.
But your (Kernels and The Fishmonger) are still quibbling about a 10% price difference and with only 2 colour choices.
This is just standard economics |(
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Hawk
Posts: 983
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Location: Napier

Sat May 24, 2014 10:39 pm

You are right about the RRP being set before the kayak was even on the market, which I am sure is how they did their business plan.

I don't agree though about the 10% price difference. That's salesman maths.

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DJ-400
Posts: 358
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Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Profish 400
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Location: Wanganui

Sat May 24, 2014 11:15 pm

Oh and on a side note;
I think we here in NZ are very lucky to be able to buy direct from the manufacturer who designed, built, tested and use these kayaks day in, day out and stand behind their product not only in quality but knowledge. That in itself is worth every penny and we should all consider ourselves lucky to have that opportunity because if it is lost dew to the almighty dollar then will we see Viking manufacturing heading overseas like so many other businesses!!

Hawk, whether it be salesman's math or any other math, the price is the price, and for all the items I have bought on ebay US or shops from the US they have always stated that for certain states the sales tax (6%) will be added on to the advertised price.
So what ever the percentage difference is between the NZ price or the US price the deals have been made and they are what they are. I don't have a problem with it.

Oh, Im a painter and on an hourly wage.
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Hawk
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Location: Napier

Sun May 25, 2014 7:23 am

I don't have a problem with the pricing difference either. I'm just saying that it's clearly not 10%.

There's a huge price difference, and it's totally justifiable ... If you look at from their business perspective.

Having a product that's essentially custom designed for New Zealand conditions and supported to the extreme like Viking is quite amazing.

ship
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:48 pm
Kayak Make: STEALTH
Kayak Model: EVO 465
Location: hamilton

Sun May 25, 2014 8:16 am

Isn't the price reflective of the market?? sure is,Viking has worked hard to build a shit hot boat with a price that reflects its design quality and market position
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Winch
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:10 pm
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Kayak Model: Dorado 2
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Location: Earth

Sun May 25, 2014 8:19 am

I think its more about the saving to process the order rather than the saving in the build, 1 order for 50 kayak vs 1 order for 1 kayak. Viking still makes about the same but the US gets them a bit cheaper and passes that on. also cheaper to get each kayak to their door in the US than Fergs/or C&Ks door in Auckland.

If Fergs or C&K said they would take a order of 50 kayaks at the US spec they could get a lower price too

The last time I brought a plastic kayak I paid $2000 for a 4.3 ultra with upgrade seat and rudder RRP was $2399 then so you can get a good deal

Rob
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:05 am
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Aqua 2/Profish Reload
VHF Call Sign: ZMU6741
Location: Masterton

Sun May 25, 2014 8:53 am

[Generalisations=on] The retailers WANT/NEED your money. To make a sale they will give you discounts so that your money winds up in their pocket, not some other retailers. Nearly all will run the "if you find it cheaper elsewhere, come back and we'll match it" by you. The memory of every dollar that they don't extract from you burns their souls for all eternity... ok maybe thats a bit over the top. but you get the gist. :) [generalisations=off]



Change of topic... not related to my comment above.

I checked out Waikato Canoe and kayak sale... there was a standard Reload in-store(non ruddered Yellow/red) for $2199. $300 discount from RRP.
A good deal and I would have been tempted...except I'm wanting a custom colour/ruddered version.

RB
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:52 pm
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: Pro fish 400

Sun May 25, 2014 9:45 am

Rob wrote:[Generalisations=on] The retailers WANT/NEED your money. To make a sale they will give you discounts so that your money winds up in their pocket, not some other retailers. Nearly all will run the "if you find it cheaper elsewhere, come back and we'll match it" by you. The memory of every dollar that they don't extract from you burns their souls for all eternity... ok maybe thats a bit over the top. but you get the gist. :) [generalisations=off]



Change of topic... not related to my comment above.

I checked out Waikato Canoe and kayak sale... there was a standard Reload in-store(non ruddered Yellow/red) for $2199. $300 discount from RRP.
A good deal and I would have been tempted...except I'm wanting a custom colour/ruddered version.

This is an excellent point to highlight Rob. And It also highlights why Viking can't drop prices when you buy direct. I don't think any one sets out to pay RRP when on the hunt for a new toy weather its a new kayak, boat, car, rod and reel - you ALWAYS go for a bargin! Unless you have enough money and can't be bothered haggling with the salesman. And if the boat cost doesn't change much - go for the extras - you get value for money when you play hard ball. If I was looking for a reload to buy I would have been down at W C & K jumping on this deal and seeing what else I could get thrown in!!! Not wingeing on here about someone else's business plan…...

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Hokaai
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:43 am
Kayak Make: Viking
Kayak Model: PF 400 lite
Location: Te Puke

Sun May 25, 2014 9:57 am

Late on this topic... sorry.

We miss the BIG elephant in the room... The MASSIVE mark-ups we pay at our retail shops!
Do not blame Viking, they are only protecting their dealers.

Not long ago a bought a rod... and when smooching the sales girl for discount she checked the prices... and I peered over her shoulder... wholesale cost of rod, $79,99, sales price $199,99.
Going down the list it was all the same 120% mark-up... Your $2599 Reload at your local dealer was only $1199 wholesale!

OK, Maybe profit margins differ for different products, but that would go a long way to explain the ridiculous prices we pay.

Stephen Tapp is only waffling here to protect his dealers... without them we all would have to travel to Matamata... same goes for Ocean Kayak.
Profish 400

Snakebite1969
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:21 pm
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Kayak Model: Tandem Island
Location: Auckland

Sun May 25, 2014 10:12 am

kernels wrote:I must be having a stroke, can not believe what I'm reading. You take a product, ship it to the other side of the world and sell it for less than you sell it for at the door of the place where you made it and everyone is jumping up and down about how happy that makes them.
That is called dumping and the US has strict laws against it.

http://enforcement.trade.gov/intro/

What is Dumping?

Dumping occurs when a foreign producer sells a product in the United States at a price that is below that producer's sales price in the country of origin ("home market"), or at a price that is lower than the cost of production. The difference between the price (or cost) in the foreign market and the price in the U.S. market is called the dumping margin. Unless the conduct falls within the legal definition of dumping as specified in U.S. law, a foreign producer selling imports at prices below those of American products is not necessarily dumping.

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