Greenland Paddle

General Kayak Fishing Discussions
kingiFiddler
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Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Still haven't found any Tanekaha, but thought I'd have a crack with some other timber so I can get a few mistakes and general learning out of the way before ruining good/rare timber.
The net result is I now have more questions than before I started, but I made this first GP with that in mind - to try a few things and see what does and doesn't work.
GP1.jpg
GP2.jpg
Demo' Kauri, Rimu and the ends are Pohutukawa. Weight is about 1350gms.

Not sure I have sizing or shape right, needs more coats of oil and I'm going to try a few final coats of lanolin and see how it holds up. Laminated some camber into it to see if I can feel the difference with positive and then negative camber. Even though it is laminated, I can't see it maintaining its shape once the sun gets on it. I feel the Rimu will go its own way if given half a chance.

But, a fun, rainy weather project. Am excited to see how it feels compared to Euro paddles.

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Blazer60
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Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:37 pm

Nice work.
Blazer60
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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:39 pm

Beautiful piece :y:
I do have to say that 1.3Kg is huge for a GL paddle though (twice the weight of mine), although that'll be the denser wood.

You do need a nice 'sharp' edge on the blades, a lot are too fat and rounded.

Either way, I'm sure you'll certainly notice the beneficial stick-effect once you've paddled with it for a couple of hours :inlove:
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.................... "Flying Mango"....................
Phoenix Hornet - Specialty Assault Craft

Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

kingiFiddler
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Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:17 am

Thanks. Lotsa learning baked into this first one. I wonder if the first paddling session will raise more questions than it answers. I hope so, as long as it does answer a few as well.

If anyone knows of any lesser-known native timbers available in the North half of the North Island, that they think might be interesting to see in a paddle, could they please let me know? I'm keen to travel, pay for outright or barter, and pay freight to try different types. I've rimu, Kauri, Totara, Pohutukawa, Puriri, Matai. Tanekaha (celery Pine/ Celery tree) is still top of my wish list but finding a downed tree or one that legitimately needs to come down, is proving harder than I had hoped. Walked passed enough of it in the past when I never needed any timber - Murphy's Law I guess. Also Kaikawaka might be an interesting one to try.
GP3a.jpg

kingiFiddler
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Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:37 am

The more I read online about GP finishes, the more confusing it gets. What do yous fellas use on yours? I'm trying linseed oil first few coats then lanolin (slightly heated to get runny). Not sure how it will hold up.

kingiFiddler
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Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:59 pm

Was in BBS Timbers in Whangarei yesterday. They mentioned paddle makers are buying their (slightly heavier than WRC) Yellow Cedar because it has more natural oils.Has anyone tried both and which do you prefer?

I was thinking along the lines of a super-thin cedar GP with a cedar ply stringer to maintain strength. But would the ply end grain suck up epoxy, negating the weight savings of a thinner paddle?

kingiFiddler
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Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm

Regarding weight of this GP, the density of the wood is about 25-40% more than WRC, so the rest of the weight difference I'm guessing comes from this one still being quite chunky. Weight was never much of a consideration on this one. Plenty to learn before worrying about weight too much. It's chunky so I can take more off as i experiment with sharpening the edges, working out how thin it can go before it fails, but there are many other questions to answer before I start risking it breaking because of being too thin, but I fully expect this one to eventually be sacrificed on the alter of learning, providing a reasonable base of learning to take into GPv2. An adventure I'm looking forward to.

Mac50L
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Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:43 pm

kingiFiddler wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:09 pm
Demo' Kauri, Rimu and the ends are Pohutukawa. Weight is about 1350gms.
Twice the weight it should be. That's a lot of weight to have to handle for a day of paddling.
Edges need to be sharper as HLD says.
Use WRC, it works, it is easy to work and get something that works to find out how to use one - first.
Finish - linsed oil. If it feels slightly "sticky"/tacky it is right, will give a good grip and last well.
Loom (shaft) rectangular or even square with rounded corners as your pulling fingers make a right-angle when bent and the base of the fingers against the flat surface are used for the push.

Decide what you are doing - making a tool (a paddle) or are you just doing a bit of woodwork with fancy woods to hang on the wall above the mantelpiece.

Versus a Euro, you have to paddle with it using your body as you would with a Wing paddle. Body rotation, straight(ish) arms, and with the right angle (cant). That is the outer edge (edge away from the kayak) ahead of the closer edge such that as your body rotates, as the paddle moves out away from the kayak during the stroke (doesn't move far), it is acting as a wing with lift. This is the "grip" on the water and why it can be so efficient despite what might appear to be a lesser blade area.

Mac50L
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Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:51 pm

kingiFiddler wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:59 pm
I was thinking along the lines of a super-thin cedar GP with a cedar ply stringer to maintain strength. But would the ply end grain suck up epoxy, negating the weight savings of a thinner paddle?
I made one with a thin (2 mm) kwila piece in it for stiffening but all my others are just straight WRC. Don't use ply as you only want the grain to go one way for strength.

Extra thin? No, it is a wing so should have some thickness to give it a foil shape. Yes, a symmetrical foil as used on aerobatic aircraft so it works which ever way up it happens to be. The Aleutians used an asymmetrical foil shape as per a Wing paddle.

kingiFiddler
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Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:12 pm

Thanks for the info.
I reckon there must be a way to get a lightweight and stable enough paddle using natives. If for no other reason than almost everyone says it can't or shouldn't be done or questions why the hell would anyone want to. I just love a challenge and have a few ideas, but first, I'll fiddle with this boat anchor AKA GPv1 and see what I can learn. Please don't take that as a sign I'm not appreciative of the warnings, mockery, advice. I just get a great deal of satisfaction do things the hard way. :)


Mac50L
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Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 pm

kingiFiddler wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:12 pm
I reckon there must be a way to get a lightweight and stable enough paddle using natives.
Yes there is using the same amount of wood weight as a light weight paddle. You'd do it by cutting very thin laminates and forming it to shape i.e. hollow.

But why?

One other thing to think about is your kayak. It is just under twice the width of a true Greenland kayak. A long, narrow, low, sit-in is a totally different vessel from the one you have. It makes it very hard or physically impossible to use the GP in the proper manner. A bit like trying to fit a 5 litre V8 into an Austin 7 and race it competitively at Le Mans.

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:35 pm

Mac50L wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 pm
A bit like trying to fit a 5 litre V8 into an Austin 7 and race it competitively at Le Mans.
*Ahem* :hai:
4.5kts which equals my greenland hull speed
FB Phoenix coming home.jpg
FB Phoenix coming home.jpg (414.3 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Super 7s.jpg
Super 7s.jpg (82.26 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Couldn't resist.
Not too easy to layback roll the Phoenix though :lol:

Adding to the above comments, a lot of people make the spine of the blade too rounded. It should be more diamond than oval.
My favourite GL blade, WDC, came in at about 600g, oiled. Unfortunately it met with an untimely death when the fat slug in the top picture (no, the kayak, not me!) sat on it during a surf launch out at the Cavallis. Still paddled the 7km home into a 15kt headwind, decent sea and towing a sea kayaker. Try that with your fancy-pants carbon 8)

TL;DR Had spare Euro but chose to paddle with broken GL stick.

Any GL stick is beautiful, it may not be totally "practical", but all should be admired for the technological wonder that they are.

HLD
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.................... "Flying Mango"....................
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Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:42 pm

kingiFiddler wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm
... before I start risking it breaking because of being too thin, ...
Do it.
I remember the day I wondered, "How thin is too thin?" Went with a helluva bang, but a) wasn't upset (well, a little) because I knew how the exercise was going to end and, b) I now know how far I can push it.
Image
.................... "Flying Mango"....................
Phoenix Hornet - Specialty Assault Craft

Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

kingiFiddler
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:32 pm

Mac50L wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 pm
kingiFiddler wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:12 pm
I reckon there must be a way to get a lightweight and stable enough paddle using natives.
Yes there is using the same amount of wood weight as a light weight paddle. You'd do it by cutting very thin laminates and forming it to shape i.e. hollow.

But why?

One other thing to think about is your kayak. It is just under twice the width of a true Greenland kayak. A long, narrow, low, sit-in is a totally different vessel from the one you have. It makes it very hard or physically impossible to use the GP in the proper manner. A bit like trying to fit a 5 litre V8 into an Austin 7 and race it competitively at Le Mans.
Why? Because people keep questioning why and I like a challenge. Want me to do something? Just tell me I can't. Or shouldn't. Besides, I've loved working with natives (overall, although sometimes they are bastards and fickle, heavy, brittle, scarce, undervalued, unpredictable pricks of timbers to work with) for decades. I was born here and most of the wood I work with (apart from when building houses) was growing here before my forefathers. Some of it was around when dinosaurs walked the Earth. Native timber moves me.

How? I've got a few tricks to reduce weight but as to how much of a difference they will make remain to be seen. First, narrow down the design/shape. Couldn't give a rats about weight at this stage. Too much else to learn/try/fail at first.

Yeah, I struggled with how to size this paddle given the width of our fishing platforms. Think I may have gone a bit too long. Time will tell. HLD using a similar yak and enjoying a GP shows there's hope for those of us piloting barges. :rofl:

kingiFiddler
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:37 pm

Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:42 pm
kingiFiddler wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm
... before I start risking it breaking because of being too thin, ...
Do it.
I remember the day I wondered, "How thin is too thin?" Went with a helluva bang, but a) wasn't upset (well, a little) because I knew how the exercise was going to end and, b) I now know how far I can push it.
Shall do. It'll be the last step before GPv2.

kingiFiddler
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:44 pm

Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:35 pm
Adding to the above comments, a lot of people make the spine of the blade too rounded. It should be more diamond than oval.
Was wondering that and how it jives with the 'GP as a foil' mantra.

I struggled a bit with the choice of shape. Ended up using this and are guilty of running the orbital over what were sharp, defined edges to round them over:
GPv1Shape.jpg
Is there a better shape formula for us newbies to try please? I'm thinking the one above might actually be a bit too complicated and a simpler shape that's actually easier to achieve might work just as well, but it's just an uneducated hunch.

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Blazer60
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Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:25 pm

Is there a better shape formula for us newbies to try please? I'm thinking the one above might actually be a bit too complicated and a simpler shape that's actually easier to achieve might work just as well, but it's just an uneducated hunch.
Seen this?

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kingiFiddler
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Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:44 pm

Yes thanks. The shape/dimensions chart I posted above is from the link on his video. I've got a few ideas to try and plenty to learn, but at the moment, no time. Frustrating.

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:12 pm

I wouldn't be too precious over exact design on the first blade(s) - Any slight inefficiency would be masked until your 'Euro' technique has wasted away :lol:

End of the day, make a stick, get it wet frequently, and just get used to driving it.
Worry about squeaking the last bits of performance out later.

HLD

Any stick is a good stick ;)
Image
.................... "Flying Mango"....................
Phoenix Hornet - Specialty Assault Craft

Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

Mac50L
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Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:38 am

I can see a lot of "I'll build a plane, I've got a couple of doors here I'll use them for wings." No understanding of why things are shaped a certain way. Enough grunt and the doors might work as wings but never apply the word "efficiently".

The way a GP works well is in the shape. Otherwise why not just use a 2-1/2 metre 4x2, it will work (sort of) and save a lot of shaping and shavings all over the workshop.

The how to make diagram above, I've seen that and sort-of started from there originally but think my much simpler measurement diagrams work better. My method certainly saves a lot of work and wood. And NOT round edges.

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