Catch and Release Ladder Discussions

The Hibiscus Kayak Fishing Club forum for club and member discussions
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Armie
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:33 am

A number of members within The Hibiscus Coast Kayak Fishing Club are keen for the club to consider a catch and release ladder (C&R) for the new club year to be run in conjunction with the current point’s ladder.

This is in the forum so that those members with thoughts on how this could work can discuss without all of us being bombarded with email through our Inboxes and those that wish to participate in the discussions can do so freely and separately from the total membership with the idea that we can put a workable solution to the club executive.

Any C&R ladder will be passed by the committee if it is seen to be sanctioned by the majority of the club members and also a clear understanding of how any ladder of this type would work.

The following needs to be discussed and or clarified and not necessarily in any particular order:

Can members participate in both ladders?
Assuming yes can they participate in both ladders at the same club event.
Do we have 2 sweeps at each club event or is C&R an annual prize.

Is it for Snapper only or do we add another ladder for Kingfish as well.

How many fish per club event would be allowed to be part of any C&R points

How would the points work.
It has been discussed that length in C&R is the fairest option with points given in 2 sizes ranges being the size equivalent of 10 -15lb and 15lb plus.

Obviously sizes would need to also be discussed and set.

Most importantly for any C&R program to work the fish need to be treated with the utmost care and considerable discussion and advice would be needed and sort as to how this should take place.
Some thought has been given to knotless nets.
Others to gaffing through the top of the bottom lip
Lip grippers may also have a role to play
Over the coming months it gives us all a chance to try the various methods and discuss here in the forums as to what appears to work and to also take advice from the experts. So that we have a workable solution.

This is the most important part as once we have established how the fish are best treated we can then decide on how we can put them forward for points consideration


Initial thoughts are that the C&R program would work along the following:

At the start of the of any club event all participants in the C&R ladder would be given a random token with a number. This number would be recorded alongside the club members name and would vary from event to event. This token could also be part of the clubs safety protocols.

Any fish that a club member catches that they would like to release would be kept in the water placed alongside a measuring stick or tape on the side of their kayak and a photo taken by another kayaker.

At this point no logical way is seen to enable a member to verify any fish caught if operating alone. As the club is promoting and encouraging the use of marine radios it is seen that in most cases a fellow kayaker is within a short paddle distance. Any thoughts as to how an individual could verify their own release is one of the key discussion points in the forum
Any photo would also include the token with its number clearly visible to prove that it has been caught on the day. The measuring stick could be painted 2 different bright colors so that its size could be clearly visible and enable ease of point’s allocation. Again trials over the months ahead will enable a workable solution.

If you have any comments or thoughts please feel free to post.

Paul Armishaw June 2009

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Mental
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:45 am

Here are my thoughts:

Can members participate in both ladders?
Yes

Assuming yes can they participate in both ladders at the same club event.
I would only see the C&R as an annual ladder so it wouldn't really be a club event as such, all processing would be post event anyway, i.e. all photographs need to be forwarded to the C&R club official for collation and recording, so it wouldn't be an "on the day" event as such.

Do we have 2 sweeps at each club event or is C&R an annual prize.
No C&R should be annual, and the trophy and/or sponsored prizes would be the only reward unless we all want to put in say $10 as a sweep for the annual ladder?

Is it for Snapper only or do we add another ladder for Kingfish as well.
Keep it simple, Snapper only, or at least for the first year...

How many fish per club event would be allowed to be part of any C&R points
As many as you can catch

How would the points work.
Keep it simple, 1 point per centimeter of fish over a minimum limit, set the minimum C&R measure limit to say 30cm (you can't claim points for anything under 30cm). So a 36cm Snapper would net you 36 points, a 58cm Snapper 58 points, a 29cm Snapper zero points. and no half measures, only count full centimeters, always round down, so 32 and three quarters only gets 32 points.

Obviously sizes would need to also be discussed and set.
As above, nothing under 30cm counts

Most importantly for any C&R program to work the fish need to be treated with the utmost care and considerable discussion and advice would be needed and sort as to how this should take place.
Some thought has been given to knotless nets.

Even with a knotless net there is still a requirement to "man handle" the fish out of the net for measurement purposes so this just seems like double handling to me..?

Others to gaffing through the top of the bottom lip
I often gaff large Snapper though the bottom lip as this is the "accepted" low damage way to hold a fish for hooking then releasing BUT I've not seen any evidence from a marine biologist... I can't see how you would gaff a large Snapper in the top lip...

Lip grippers may also have a role to play
Yes these are very easy to use, do not puncture the skin of the fish at all, and do seem very popular on the tournament circuit in the US for C&R competitions BUT this is only with small Bass of course..

Initial thoughts are that the C&R program would work along the following:

At the start of the of any club event all participants in the C&R ladder would be given a random token with a number. This number would be recorded alongside the club members name and would vary from event to event. This token could also be part of the clubs safety protocols.


Yes that is the standard practice in other C&R comps, or simply write the "number of the day" on your measuring or brag board

Any fish that a club member catches that they would like to release would be kept in the water placed alongside a measuring stick or tape on the side of their kayak and a photo taken by another kayaker.
This would require that all fishers MUST buddy up, yes this si a good safety method but not ALWAYS practical, why not use a measure board or brag mat and photograph the fish yourself? This is the standard practice in other comps BUT the issue we have is how you measure large fish on a kayak, and extreme example but the 25.3lb Snapper I caught the other week went over 85cm! where are you supposed to find 85cm of flat space to measure and photo your fish...

At this point no logical way is seen to enable a member to verify any fish caught if operating alone. As the club is promoting and encouraging the use of marine radios it is seen that in most cases a fellow kayaker is within a short paddle distance. Any thoughts as to how an individual could verify their own release is one of the key discussion points in the forum
Any photo would also include the token with its number clearly visible to prove that it has been caught on the day. The measuring stick could be painted 2 different bright colors so that its size could be clearly visible and enable ease of point’s allocation. Again trials over the months ahead will enable a workable solution.

As above

If you have any comments or thoughts please feel free to post.
As above :)

I'm also happy to help with this system, it's also the same system that we want to use to run the monthly competition on this forum, so a solution to the measuring and recording would be benificial to us all Would also be nice to see the same system rolled into the 2011 Nationals... Do we really want to invite everyone into our back yard and ask them to remove all our good fish..?

Cheers, Jason
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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:06 am

Just a suggestion re:points system.

Rather than point per cm, what about one point per 5cm?

31 - 35cm = 3 points
36 - 40 = 4 points
41 - 45 = 5 points...

Re: XOS fish measurement

Most (if not all paddles float) Why not photograph fish in water with paddle alongside? Graduations are easily added with insulation tape of different colours.

HLD
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:00 pm

I agree with the hairy one, here is my idea of points. clour graduated stick, strip or paddle, points range per colour, one fish per colour (prevents photoing the same fish twice) max 3 fish per species will try and put my grahpic on here else will attach it. example red 45-55cm-1 point, blue-55-65 cm 2 points, yellow 65-75 cm 3 points, etc.
fISH sTICK.jpg
jpg image of fish stick and fish
fISH sTICK.jpg (79.03 KiB) Viewed 3971 times
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:15 pm

I like the way this is heading but have a couple of questions;

1. How do you identify the day or event that the fish was caught at?

May be write the identity number on the last band with a black sharpe and replace the tape each time?


2. Why limit it to only three fish? the most you could ever score at any event would be six points is that correct?

I suppose we need to define the actual "competition" part of this, i assumed it was awarded to the person who caught and released the most fish during the year, who did the best for our sport so to speak, rather than who released three fish each time...

I think saying "prevents photoing the same fish twice" seems a little un-trusting? if we are not trusting people then you get into the situation where you would have to say "you are not allowed to bring any fish back as you may have also photographed them"....


Cheers, Jason
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Ramco - Fishmaster 580 My BIG kayak!
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Mental
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:40 pm

Shimano Brag Mat - This is soft though an meant for use on a boat - about AU$45
http://www.shimanofish.com.au/publish/c ... gmats.html

Shimano Environet - this is the new net that has been brought out to be more "fish friendly" - no pricing available
http://www.shimanofish.com.au/publish/c ... onets.html

Example Lip Grips - there are lots of these available from many suppliers and range from $20 at the Warehouse to $150 for the Shimano ones
http://www.shimanofish.com.au/publish/c ... Grips.html

The Austrailian Kayak Fishing Forum brag mat:
Image

I've also contacted Andy (Tagit) with regards to coming up in an KFNZ one

Cheers, Jason
Phoenix Kayaks - Hornet
Stealth - Evolution 465
Ramco - Fishmaster 580 My BIG kayak!
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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:19 pm

Make sure the KFNZ model is an XOS one that exceeds 850mm :mrgreen:
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.................... "Flying Mango".......... [Up for sale, $1400]

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Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

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Mental
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:08 pm

Yep for sure, we are looking at 1 METER :D

Should have a prototype shortly...
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GTs
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:34 pm

My post is an example only which can be thought about and finessed. The stick or flexible cloured tape measure or whatever could extend to 1m giving a range of about 1- 8 points say. The cours are a simple way of allocating points. What does it matter what day it is, we need to trust each other, the comment about 1 photo per clour was not in any way meant that we dont trust each other, but seriously 50 snapper could look like the same fish or one could like 50. It brings down the numbers weighed in, and just creates a point of difference. I am not keen on saying look I caught and released a hundred fish! Also Often one catches heaps of fish all around the same size, I see no future in 'measuring' in 10 35 cm fish, it would be much more of a challenge to catch a range of fish. 3 fish at 3 per species means we are not reinventing the wheel, we can weigh in 9-12 or so fish with this suggestion per comp, we also do not want to make this a cumbersome tiresome chore for the administrator. These can be tallied per comp to determine a winner every comp. Also a moving fish or paddle in the water means the measurements are never going to be precise, a 10cm gap gives leeway for a reasonable measurement or cataegory for the fish to fit into.
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delbnz
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:54 pm

I really like the way this C&R plan is going. My thoughts would be that for the the purpose of finding a 'winner' that only larger fish should be recognised.

The idea of a larger size bands (ie. 50-65 = 1pt, 66-80 = 3pts, 81+ = 6pts) and a focus on bigger fish will reduce the propencity of a large number of small fish being targeted.

As far as numbers go, we are allowed 9 Snapper a day under Fisheries regs. So why not allow a total of 9 wieghed or C&R fish?
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demigod
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:48 pm

Mental wrote:Yep for sure, we are looking at 1 METER :D

Should have a prototype shortly...
Awesome ! Saw those on the Aussie forum and thought they would be great for showing off catches here... Though seems the Aussies measure to tail tip instead of the 'V' of the tail.
Image

Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to Yak fish and you won't hear from him most weekends :-P

Armie
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Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:32 pm

Guys keep it coming we have some good ideas coming forward... Speaking to a few people today most are of the opinion this is for fish larger than 600mm the current club min is 450 mm It is about keeping the older breeding fish still alive.
I do like the idea of the mat but would see the club developing their own and my experience in marketing would suggest that the sponsors would be lining up. Especially the amount of times Pete and Als have been in the mags of late...

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