Orere Point yesterday 20th August

To discuss safety issues and their direct affects on kayaks and kayak fishing. Do it but do it safely!
Patch
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:51 am

Why wait Kev - most people would find a new appreciation, better to learn in winter and know your limits in a controlled environment, than find out the hard way and be caught unprepared.


Here is an exercise: dress as you would normally dress (to go fishing) then jump in the briney (without touching the bottom) and see how comfortable you are and for how long - a good way to gauge whether or not you are comfortable when it does turn pear shaped.
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Mental
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:55 am

Basic and flat water but it's a starting point...

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paddlesnap
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 am

Mental wrote:Good post Awondering :y:

All hatches / ice boxes / center wells etc MUST be kept closed and secure at ALL times.
Yeah all well and good but the hatches are there to be used to stow fish and gear and this is is when inattention instability is always at it's worst-
Like I said and have found myself this is when you are often most vulnerable.
The tried and tested separate fish bag(Well cover) with draining capability and low deck height definitely fits the bill,these also should have the ability to be jettisoned (taken off ) easily with quick release system(like weight belts for divers).
This is also good when unloading quick once ashore :y:
Raising the centre of gravity too high with bolt on extras is all going to work as a keel to keep upturned kayak very happy to be upturned especially without the biggest piece of ballast -the paddler and his support paddle skills :doh: abandoning ship.
There is a well known boating design principle called the Free Surface Effect that applies to all vessels and is quickly obvious once you put water inside where it's not meant to be .
In that it sloshes around and effectively the inertia /weight of it cancels out righting moments (tipping back up right way)
There is a lot of parallel technology out there and it dosn't take too much common sense to see potential for improving many of these bug bears.
I am definately for carrying all the safety gear (be more utilised though if it was more affordable-)
But unfortunately like Patch said unless you have jumped into freezing water and suffered cold water shock you won't realise how debilitating it can be :!:

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:29 am

Excellent posts! Certainly glad of a happy ending.
Hopefully lessons learnt (and not turned into a joke over the beers) and maybe the boaties that rescued the guy won't tar every yakker with the same brush.

There is a certain level safety to be gained by heading out in a group - IF people are capable of assisting with a rescue. More often than not though, I have found people tend to shift the responsibility for their safety onto the rest of the group. I think that you would probably find long time solo yakkers tend to be well up in the safety margins as they have to account for most of the what-if scenarios, such as spare paddle.

It surprises me the value people place on their bling.
In a rescue situation, if it's hindering your safety, cut it away. Doesn't matter if it's an ice box or a rod with brand new Trinidad bolted onto it - Your safety comes first. Divers are a classic for this - not dumping their belt because it cost money, and I know a guy who is extremely lucky to still be here - because he wouldn't let go of his bag of scollies!

But the bottom line is, No point talking about it. You need to practice it.
Practice it in a nice heated pool, then flat water, then rough water, then rough water in the dark (or with eyes closed - no peeking!), then rough water in the dark with your buddy cracking you over the head repeatedly with his paddle (optional).

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:31 am

Mental wrote:Basic and flat water but it's a starting point...

What is it with this lunging over the kayak hull to turn it back over???? Seems to be Monkey See, Monkey Do.... |(
Just reach underneath and pull the opposite side (decklines, seat straps etc) towards you. Damn sight less effort and a lot more effective, can be done with one hand and no aerial acrobatics.
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sk8e8
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:55 am

Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:
Mental wrote:Basic and flat water but it's a starting point...

What is it with this lunging over the kayak hull to turn it back over???? Seems to be Monkey See, Monkey Do.... |(
Just reach underneath and pull the opposite side (decklines, seat straps etc) towards you. Damn sight less effort and a lot more effective, can be done with one hand and no aerial acrobatics.
I think it's time to see an 'HLD productions' demonstration video on here :P
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kiwiladbrad
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:08 am

Im in... lets get wet. Warm would be good (yes Im an Auckland and yes would need a flat white afterwards) but happy to do the cold stuff too.

Im keen to do this sooner rather than later - whats the process from here? Couple of forum guys have put their hands up to demonstrate, what about you Mental? OK do a course for this sorta gig?

Otherwise while the weather is stunning like this we could meet down at Mission Bay (nice n central) or somewhere like Bucklands where it gets deep quick. Afterwork or weekend. Actually... serious stuff aside I reckon we would get some laughs out of it too... probably a few reality checks to follow :wasntme:
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Stonecross
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:17 am

I'm glad at times that common sense does prevail, I'm not known for it that much, but when I pulled the pin at Orere last week it was because:
- I've never fished there before
- It was midweek
- I was alone
- It looked "a little dodgy"

Yes I had the VHF, saftey gear in dry bag, leashes etc. I had not logded a TR with CG, I did keep the boss in the loop via txt.

I'm in, never been turtled but it's got to be a "when" rather than a "if". Happy to pay $ for the privilage.

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:19 am

sk8e8 wrote:I think it's time to see an 'HLD productions' demonstration video on here :P
You're on.
Will see if I can get one this weekend (won't be in HD sorry)
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Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

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Hainesy
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:25 am

kiwiladbrad wrote:Im in... lets get wet. Warm would be good (yes Im an Auckland and yes would need a flat white afterwards) but happy to do the cold stuff too.

Im keen to do this sooner rather than later - whats the process from here? Couple of forum guys have put their hands up to demonstrate, what about you Mental? OK do a course for this sorta gig?

Otherwise while the weather is stunning like this we could meet down at Mission Bay (nice n central) or somewhere like Bucklands where it gets deep quick. Afterwork or weekend. Actually... serious stuff aside I reckon we would get some laughs out of it too... probably a few reality checks to follow :wasntme:
Hey KLB....way back earlier in this thread, I "volunteered" to try and get something organised....I'll put you down as a helper !!!
"The trouble with common sense is that it's not too common !"

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kiwiladbrad
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:28 am

Yeah no issues... hey I reckon some stuff can be "over organised" and a spontaneous get together can sometimes work just as good. Trying to wrangle everyone to one place and one time is great but if ya really keen an informal get to gether for a few dummy runs will probably work just as well.

If ya know what I mean... :y:
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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:11 am

Good on you guys for getting something moving :y: Agree that smaller groups are more likely to happen, which is the important thing.

Definitely suggest warm water at this time of year if you can, or the session is likely to be measured in minutes, but can be done at the end of a trip once you're back at the beach.

For authenticity, make sure you’ve got some rods on board (No reels)
If you don’t normally tether them, you’ll find out why it’s a good idea to, although the angle of the yak frequently holds them in the full depth holders, haven’t tried the half depth ones yet.

Also fun to have one guy act as a panicking swimmer and try to climb on board the rescuing yak (tip: always keep the victims yak between you and them)
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awondering
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:44 am

I will make a couple more observations from Saturday, Firstly as Paddlesnap says changing centre of gravity… do you think the 50mm foam seat pad being used would have added to this capsize? Because I saw one there… Secondly I noticed sea anchors be deployed in a manner that set the kayakers with their backs to the sea, and as I said in the beginning of this, the sea had a short snotty swell, I do not know if what I do is correct, but surely you want to see what’s going to hit you, so face the sea… it gives you time to react, may only be a second but could be the difference between being in or out of the water…

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awondering
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:47 am

Patch wrote:Why wait Kev - most people would find a new appreciation, better to learn in winter and know your limits in a controlled environment, than find out the hard way and be caught unprepared.


Here is an exercise: dress as you would normally dress (to go fishing) then jump in the briney (without touching the bottom) and see how comfortable you are and for how long - a good way to gauge whether or not you are comfortable when it does turn pear shaped.
Too true there patch...But I am starting to wonder if I am actually wear anything correct for this time of the year, and starting to think a wet suit might just be the go...

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:08 pm

awondering wrote:I will make a couple more observations from Saturday, Firstly as Paddlesnap says changing centre of gravity… do you think the 50mm foam seat pad being used would have added to this capsize? Because I saw one there… Secondly I noticed sea anchors be deployed in a manner that set the kayakers with their backs to the sea, and as I said in the beginning of this, the sea had a short snotty swell, I do not know if what I do is correct, but surely you want to see what’s going to hit you, so face the sea… it gives you time to react, may only be a second but could be the difference between being in or out of the water…
Technically the extra 2" height would make a difference to the CoG, but is a 5' 4" person less likely to fall out than a 5' 6" ?
Given the variables, coupled with the stability of these things (compared to sea yaks) I would consider the elevated CoG to be a minor contributor (Consider Stand Up Paddleboarders...)

I too prefer to face the waves, partly to see what's coming, and partly because the hull is designed to take them that way (stops those slaps in the back :lol: )

Although if they were end on, I wouldn't expect enough yaw to roll them (not knowing their experience levels)
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.................... "Flying Mango".......... [Up for sale, $1400]

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Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:21 pm

awondering wrote:This is the stuff we need out of this topic KK... what is it??? PFD, PLB, VHF,CELL PH...
I'd have to suggest forget the cellphone as emergency kit, and add a day/night flare (by all means use the cell to phone your onshore contact if you are going to be delayed etc).

PLB? probably not necessary for most urban paddlers who stay relatively close. If you fish offshore or remote, maybe even midweek in some areas then it's worth considering.

But you must realise that a PLB is not an instant rescue - and unless you can get out of the water, even in summer, there's a good chance it's not going to be a happy ending by the time RCCNZ have a boat or chopper to you.
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.................... "Flying Mango".......... [Up for sale, $1400]

Phoenix Hornet - Specialty Assault Craft

Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

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Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:10 pm

Ok guys do you want to know how the turtle happened.....
I think we could all learn from this persons mishap.
The person involved was not me but a friend from the EAKFC. I phoned him at home to make sure he was ok and to find out how it happened.
The very young 63 yr old is fit and fairly experenced kayak fisherman.
He said the cause of the capsize was his drift shute. What happened was he put his shute out on the down wind side of the kayak (big mistake) and because of the wind and waves it went under his kayak and opened up on the other side of the yak. I presumed from this he was mostly side on to the coming waves and not pointing the yak into or away from the swell. ( big mistake ) also not throwing the shute out towards the back or front of the kayak, which in hindsight he should have done. The shute opening on the wrong side of the yak and the big choppy seas pulled his kayak over and caused him to fall into the cold sea.
I think in big chop we can all get a bit rushed in what we do on the yak.
But he did say he didn't have a problem with the heavy seas felt stable enough.

For safety gear he had top and bottom sharks on and a semi dry suit most of us wear. He also had a vhf in a drybag. (So what most of us wear)
He said he was in the water for 5 - 10 mins before anyone one notice he was off his yak. he tried to use his vhf but found that he could not use the call button on it due to the plastic not giving him good grip on the vhf, he said it was quite slippery. He said the dry bag was the glossy plastic ones made for a vhf. He also said the cold didn't help. The centre hatch and the fish box were unlocked and filled with water and even the rescuers on the boat had trouble turning it over. He was very lucky the other kayakers and boat was there. In saying that he wouldn't have gone out if he was by himself.
He also said anyone who didn't have a wetsuit or fully dry suit would have had the same problem with the cold.
Has it put him off yak fishing... no. He just said he would get rid of the vhf drybag.
buy a wetsuit or drysuit and not be so silly in the way he put out his drift shute. Oh and he did say he would get rid of his fish box.

Message to myself.... Get a wetsuit for winter and practice getting back on board my kayak in rough seas. I think I have been lucky not to fall so far this winter and I thought the gear I wear would be enough. I dont think so any more.

Cheers and keep safe, TFW

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awondering
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:16 pm

The Fish Whisperer wrote:
Message to myself.... Get a wetsuit for winter and practice getting back on board my kayak in rough seas. I think I have been lucky not to fall so far this winter and I thought the gear I wear would be enough. I dont think so any more.

Cheers and keep safe, TFW

Clive I am with you on that...

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Hairy Little Dwarf
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:21 pm

Good to hear the followup TFW :y:

Agree the drogue going under the yak midships would have done it nicely in those conditions as it would pull the downtide side down, and with a bit of lift from a wee wave on the other....
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.................... "Flying Mango".......... [Up for sale, $1400]

Phoenix Hornet - Specialty Assault Craft

Dad! Dad! Look at his fish! It's way bigger than anything you've EVER caught! - Nosey 7-8yo boy on opening my icebox to father strapping down his $XXX Stabicraft 759(?) - Gold. Pure Gold.

Patch
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Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:06 pm

awondering wrote:I noticed sea anchors be deployed in a manner that set the kayakers with their backs to the sea, and as I said in the beginning of this,
You weren't the only one to notice that - all five/six that were still present when I arrived were positioned so - bloody stupid imo I guess some people don't like drifting backwards.


Glad to see some of you are starting to seriously think about the wetsuit, hopefully no-one else has to be rescued before more people start wearing them.
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